 |
GAMSAT Test Preparation
For GAMSAT Candidates discuss the GAMSAT syllabus, form GAMSAT study groups, discuss GAMSAT study resources, review of GAMSAT preparation material, discuss anything that will help achieve a better GAMSAT score.
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
jezzi123
Regular
Joined: 07 Dec 2008
Posts: 16
|
 Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: | | A first year doctor, Intern, BASE salary is LESS than that of a first year Registered Nurses BASE salary in the South Australian Public Health system, and I am sure the other states are on par. |
True. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
KaneMortlock
Rookie
Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 6
Location: Wollongong, NSW, AUSTRALIA
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:09 pm Post subject: ... |
|
|
How is that justified given that a doctor has done a three year degree plus a four year degree to become an intern (so 7 years education, now in year  .
A registered nurse has done a three year degree (three years education, now in year 4).
More money in half the time?
Please explain. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mokusatsu
Veteran
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 43
Location: Perth
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm currently in a role where I have many doctors as clients. Don't worry, the pay does go up eventually.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jezzi123
Regular
Joined: 07 Dec 2008
Posts: 16
|
| Posted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
|
|
| KaneMortlock wrote: | How is that justified given that a doctor has done a three year degree plus a four year degree to become an intern (so 7 years education, now in year .
A registered nurse has done a three year degree (three years education, now in year 4).
More money in half the time?
Please explain. |
Because if intern salary were more, then it would be almost as much as higher levels such as residents or registrars. Then people would have no insentive to do the extra study that is needed to further their career. If interns started out on higher wages then they would take longer to join a fellowship program.
Also the responsibilities that a Registered Nurse has (not so much in first year but definately in the years after) are far greater than that of an intern. Most interns are finding their feet in the first six months of their intern year. It is not uncommon for registered nurses to educate interns and is also very common for interns to ask advice of the Registered Nurse. In fact even RMO's also ask advice from Registered Nurses.
An intern is accountable and responsible for their own actions, and is always accountable to a reg and consultant. A Registered Nurse is not only responsible for their own actions, but are also accountable to the actions of junior RN's, Enrolled Nurses, students and pre registration nurse assistants. Part of the RN's role is to delegate tasks to other members of the nursing staff, within their scope of practice.
So basically, if an intern stuffs up, they are responsible for it, but the senior MO who delegated to them is accountable. If an RN stuffs up, they are responsible for their actions, and if someone working in their team stuffs up, then the RN is also accountable for that persons actions (to a certain extent)
Hope that helps. And for the record I also think that intern salary should be higher, due to the amount of work they have to slave away at for hours on end. In fact MO salary for the entire public health system should be higher. For what some of my collegues have had to do to save a life, the money is no where near enough. I also believe however that RN rates should too be higher. Although the study is half that of a doctor, they are still part of a team who works hard to save lives and to improve the health and wellbeing of patients. Also the study at uni is only the base, the real learning is clinical. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lovebite
Grizzled
Joined: 01 Apr 2008
Posts: 271
Location: Perth, WA
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 12:22 am Post subject: Re: ... |
|
|
[quote="jezzi123Also the responsibilities that a Registered Nurse has (not so much in first year but definately in the years after) are far greater than that of an intern. Most interns are finding their feet in the first six months of their intern year. It is not uncommon for registered nurses to educate interns and is also very common for interns to ask advice of the Registered Nurse.[/quote]
Hmm... Can't agree with you there.
I can tell you categorically, that within the first couple of weeks as an intern in WA, you'll find yourself alone, with little support, making decisions that will mean the life or death of your patients.
Yes, Interns ask RNs questions, but just as many questions as get asked the other way around. Its a team, and everybody has strengths and weaknesses, and egos aside, they all talk to each other.
I do agree with what you said regarding incomes and incentives... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KaneMortlock
Rookie
Joined: 30 May 2009
Posts: 6
Location: Wollongong, NSW, AUSTRALIA
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: ... |
|
|
Your comparison was a false one.
The comparison is between an intern and a FIRST YEAR registered nurse.
Not an experienced one/team leader etc.
So explain again why a FIRST YEAR registered nurse who is doing his/her graduate year where s/he is learning everything (having only done 3 years university and approx. 24 weeks on placement) is paid more than an intern who has done 7 years of university and 2 years on placement.
The intern seems to have done much more training and would presumably have more responsibility than a FIRST YEAR registered nurse.
Kane. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jezzi123
Regular
Joined: 07 Dec 2008
Posts: 16
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: ... |
|
|
| KaneMortlock wrote: | Your comparison was a false one.
The comparison is between an intern and a FIRST YEAR registered nurse.
Not an experienced one/team leader etc.
|
I was not talking about an experienced team leader. I was talking about your average second year RN. Also in my post I did not doubt that interns did not have responsibilities. But if you also look at the rest of my post, you will see that unless the entire public health system whammy's up the pay of all doctors, that it is just not feasable for an intern to be making as much as a doctor of a higher PGY level. Also if you make the comparison of years at uni, could you not then complain that someone with a business degree which is shorter than medicine is earning alot more than a doctor??
Also I think that you are mistaken as an intern's pay rate on average in Australia is actually higher than that of a Graduate RN, with penalties and such. The average is about 55,000 plus penalties and a 1st year RN is 45,000 plus penalties.
Also I do not doubt that it is a team effort. I never said that it wasn't. I just think that if you guys want to be great doctors, that perhaps you should make a jump to the 21st century and give credit to your future collegues where it is due. Trust me, there will be a day in the future where you will be thanking that RN or EN for saving not only your patient, but also your job and registration. I have seen too many tired doctors miss something crucial that was later picked up by a nurse and corrected with little adverse affect to the patient. Such as a cardiac patient who had been examined thoroughly, diagnosed and admitted who just happened to have unequal pupils. Only picked up by an EN (who for the record was fantastic) who just happened to notice it when looking at her. Told the patients registrar who ordered a CT and found a sub arachnoid hemorrhage. Then when the same nurse politely said "so did you perhaps want to cease this lady's warfarin?" Lets just say that the Reg was more than utterly thankful.
Also, I did also say that interns do deserve a higher rate of pay. And in the places I have worked they have been very well supported and have not been put in the position to make a terribly "life or death" decision on their own. Perhaps where you have worked may be different. In fact in the first few weeks interns are far too busy running back and forth fixng drug chart errors or inserting IV cannula's. I have seen groups of interns evolve from looking like a deer in headlights in the first few months, to at the end of the year being confident and competent doctors.
There is a reason why interns are not actually registered as doctors till they successfully finish that first year. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mokusatsu
Veteran
Joined: 16 May 2009
Posts: 43
Location: Perth
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There is no "right and wrong" about the justice of paying doctors less than nurses in their early careers. It is just market forces.
Nurses are in very short supply and paying them well is one way to encourage people to get into that career. It is physically demanding work, resulting in frequent back injuries and the like, and paying them more is one way to get recruits.
The financial rewards, in the long term, of a career as a doctor are well known. People wanting to make half a million a year can do so, if they train as specialists. That is not an option for a nurse though, they will never make that much money no matter how good they are at nursing.
If you want to complain about how unfair it is that highly trained doctors make less at first than less highly trained people, I'd suggest that rather than comparing doctors to nurses you should be asking yourself why novice doctors make as little as they do compared to people in pretty much any role at a mining company. With only modest training you can head out to the bush and make more than a doctor makes just to wash dishes.
Medicine isn't the place to be if money is your main motivation. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jezzi123
Regular
Joined: 07 Dec 2008
Posts: 16
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I completely agree with you Mokusatsu.
Nursing is physically demanding (I hurt my back at the end of my graduate program, only to be told it was 'just a back sprain' (although the sciatic pains and the legnth of time on work cover of six months beggs to differ) and sent back to work, to have now re injured it 3 months ago and now find out that the year of heavy nursing has worsened my initial injury that was infact disk injuries and permanent.)
The comparison to the mining industry is a good one. People who require little prior knowlegde for a high risk job. These people in a way are also responsible for peoples lives since if they make a mistake, the consequences could be very severe.
Medicine is a competative profession. People need a high level of maturity (emotionally and intellectually) and incredible problem solving skills. While nursing is a profession with an ageing population. The problem with the way that people percieve nursing is due to the fact that it is such a diverse profession. I myself have been trained in emergency and trauma nursing which is fast paced and critical. Some of the nurses trained in critical fields such as ED, ICU, Anaesthetics etc have a very high standard of knowlegde and skills, even to compete with a senior consultant. Then on the other side of the scale, some nurses are more specialised in the more traditional view of caring and helping people (however their knowledge of pathophysiology and pharmacology are also required to be of a high standard). Even still, nursing is not the same career as it was 10 or 20 years or more ago. As doctors become more busy (due to shorter working hours compared to the old working for hours and hours at a time) Nurses have to take on more roles and skills to complement the multidisciplinary team. These skills are taking nursing to a whole new level where many nurses have the knowledge to know exactly what the doctor will be diagnosing and requesting next.
Anyway, I apologise as this is not a forum for nursing. I just believe that people still view nursing as the profession that they knew it to be decades ago and not recognising it as a highly skilled profession.
Another theory that I have for the lower intern rates is to weed out the people who are only in it for the 'status' and money. It is true that doctors have the opportunity to make loads of cash, but only those who truly love the profession for what it is, will become great doctors and not just great money makers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
prepgenie
Grizzled
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Posts: 113
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
This is some real good discussion here. Wow!!
Just want to say that when somebody really dreams of becoming a doctor he/she does not really dream of it for making money. But then money is the source of sustenance and so its important.
Our post starter here must have been curious to know the financial perks as a doctor. And he's got ample idea about that now.
Some have made a really good point about the hardships in the years towards moving up the ladder in the medical profession.
But at the end of the day what really counts apart from a comfortable lifestyle and a sufficient bank balance is the satisfaction you feel inside while feeling how many people you saved or brought a smile on their face. .. the happiness of the fact that you made a difference is something no money can buy ... and not many can achieve this.
So, doctors and would-be-doctors ... and many more people around who are toying with the idea of what a career in medicine is like ... get this straight ... it's not called a noble profession for anything .... you need to really work for it leaving the temptations or money aside to do what you dreamt of doing in the first place!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Blocked registrations / posts: 6256 / 0
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
SmartFeed
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
